Wow, Metafandom goes splodey!

[vulgarweed]

This post has nothing to do with the fact that the pop culture of my childhood died twice today.

This has to do with all the posts on metafandom about the controversy about warnings. I don't think it can really be nutshelled, but it all arose out of some instances in bandom with dub-con or non-con fics not being warned for properly. One author apologized and added the warning, the other basically said, "Oh, fuck off, I don't wanna."

The posts have gone off in all sorts of fascinating directions. Some of the issues addressed include: (1) the difference between a trigger and a squick, (2) Whether the things that need to be warned for are obvious to everyone or not, (3) varying interpretations of "dub-con", (4) what to do in the case of very quirky or unusual triggers, which are no less intense for the people who have them than the more common ones, (5) whether or not fandom can ever really be a true "safe" space, (6) what about the possibility of warnings-creep (a.k.a. The Blair's Haircut Conundrum)

I have no ready answers to any of this. But I'm going to babble on anyway.



I do warn. I do my best. I don't write non-con or incest or character death or torture very often, but when I do, I warn out the wazoo. I even warned for "codpiece jokes" that one time, and would that the creators of Blackadder were so courteous.

I think warning for things like that is basic common courtesy. I am a survivor, but I'm a fortunate one in the sense that fiction does not trigger me, or it least it hasn't yet, but I know the experience is nasty and I wouldn't want to inflict it on anyone. I also hate to get yelled at.

But I also have some sympathy for the fear of demand-for-warnings creep, and there are some things that I've seen people request warnings for that, deep in my not-really-a-nice-person bones, make me think, "Wow, that's stupid." Gut reaction.

There have been times when I've written fic that was largely designed to see how many warnings I could pile on one short story ("Charmed"), fic that has a warning list so long I'm concerned about false advertising by making it seem more twisted than it really is ("The Ring and the Crown"), and fic that yes, I confess, as if it wasn't obvious, really was written to fuck with people ("The Downward Spiral"). The latter story had the unintended side effect of really upsetting my betas! Which had the unintended, but very welcome side effect of a long conversation about what I really was really trying to do and how best to achieve that, which made it a much stronger story. (With a spoilery warning in white-out text) Mind you, it's the kind of story that at first seems to be a over-the-top tragic angst-fic with betrayal and non-con, and then turns out to be a porny comedy about a heavy BDSM scene executed by nervous bunglers who can't keep a straight face. The people I specifically wanted to fuck with were those who view tragedy as inherently more Deep and Artistic than comedy; feh, that attitude deserves all the pranking it can get, IMO, and of course I think my own motives are Right and Good.



So I will continue to do what I've always done: warn to the best of my ability so I don't hurt people, but reserve my right to be puckish now and then. If something I have done or haven't done with any of my fic has seriously emotionally hurt you, please don't be afraid to discuss it with me.

Comments

[hsavinien.livejournal.com]

Re: Tragedy as more inherently artistic and meaningful than comedy or a friendly f***... I know! Seriously, I had a course called "Philosophic Themes in Literature" and EVERY story/book was tragic and depressing as heck. I spent the discussions inserting Terry Pratchett quotes and convinced the professor that she needed to read Discworld.

Warnings for kink-stuff is important, I think, and I haven't really seen people go terribly overboard, except in a humorous way (i.e. warning for the presence of elves/rubber boots/&c.)

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

I went through that phase briefly in college, as a Lit/Writing major. Everything had to be Oh So Edgy. Of course, that was mostly my freshman year. You performed a public service with the Pratchett quotes.

I warn for kink under the assumption that it's really more like advertising. :)

[hsavinien.livejournal.com]

*snicker* Truuue... And yes, Pratchett quotes are always a public service.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

I am generally profoundly impatient with the desire for warnings, demands for consideration of "triggers" or "squicks" or whatever. On-line (like life) is by definition open to anyone or anything. Fanfiction, as any fule kno, has all sorts of things in it that all sorts of people may or may not like. If adults want to be "safe" from ever seeing anything on-line that will upset or offend them, they can go and buy themselves a copy of Green Dam. Or better still, stay off-line and under their beds.

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

Oh, I so relate to that point of view. I do. But on the other hand, being triggered sounds so totally awful that avoiding doing it to someone if possible is very worthwhile. Warning for the big ones is such an easy thing, really.

oTOH, I don't have much patience for squicks that are stuff that I do myself or see being done every damn day (Smoking, drinking, swearing, rimming - oh, look, my cat's rimming herself right now! Oh, the TRAUMA!)

[celandineb.livejournal.com]

oh, look, my cat's rimming herself right now! Oh, the TRAUMA!

*falls over laughing*

[shiv5468.livejournal.com]

The people I specifically wanted to fuck with were those who view tragedy as inherently more Deep and Artistic than comedy or smut involving people who actually like each other; feh, that attitude deserves all the pranking it can get, IMO, and of course I think my own motives are Right and Good.

Nods emphatically.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

The people I specifically wanted to fuck with were those who view tragedy as inherently more Deep and Artistic than comedy or smut involving people who actually like each other; feh, that attitude deserves all the pranking it can get, IMO, and of course I think my own motives are Right and Good.

I consider my funny fics far more deep, meaningful and indeed Artistic than the angsty, poignant, redemption stuff, which frankly, I could turn out in my sleep. Yours too, actually.

If something I have done or haven't done with any of my fic has seriously emotionally hurt you, please don't be afraid to discuss it with me.

Given that we are not, strictly speaking, personally acquainted, nothing you say or do, including fic-wise (it's fiction), could conceivably hurt me emotionally. Be reassured, you have at least one reader whose sensibilities are lead-lined.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_silverfox/]

Personally, if something squicks me I hit the back button and go find something more to my taste without even considering whether I've been warned or not, but I'm all for warning as a writer. There's always the chance it will keep away some idiot who'd have gone complaining who knows where, if he/she had read the fic. A few words of warning aren't that hard to add. (Of course, that doesn't mean I'm going to warn for the fact Draco cries in one of my fics just because one idiot once famed me for it ... and hey wait, that's canon by now!)

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

Part of the whole discussion revolves around triggers (basically, causes of flashbacks to sexual abuse and the like) being a whole different order of magnitude from mere squicks. It's a PTSD thing. I'm all in favor of telling the easily-squicked to put their big girl panties on and deal, but triggers are a whole different matter. And a big part of the problem is that they do get so easily conflated in discussions.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_silverfox/]

I know, but I can't speak of those as I have no experience with that. I've only ever encountered squicks and idiots who took offense at the plot not going their way.

[dreya-uberwald.livejournal.com]

Heh, if tragedy is innately more deep and meaningful then it does make me wonder why I find myself around 300% more prone to eye-rolling whilst reading it.

When I'm posting fanfic I tend to warn and label things as clearly as I can. Though I do tend to think that a header or summary that includes 'Pairing: Male Charater A/Male Character B and Rating: NC-17 for sexually explicit content' covers a lot of ground when it comes to consensual activities between non-related adults. I prefer it when other writers warn specifically for non-con, child abuse, main character death etc. but I think that a 'dark and violent content ahead' or 'contains themes some readers may find disturbing' labels are probably good catch alls for those who don't want to give too much away.

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

Because anything that has to work so hard to prove to you that its SRS BZNS probably isn't? :D

Though I do tend to think that a header or summary that includes 'Pairing: Male Charater A/Male Character B and Rating: NC-17 for sexually explicit content' covers a lot of ground when it comes to consensual activities between non-related adults.

Yeah, me too. I think it pretty much covers any acts that those two bodies can do together and I'm not going to be warning for each individual one. For that matter, I think in most cases when you have a header that's "Pairing: Character A/His Brother" I think that covers the incest warning too.

contains themes some readers may find disturbing'

This one can be very entertainingly subjective. :P

[dreya-uberwald.livejournal.com]

I think in most cases when you have a header that's "Pairing: Character A/His Brother" I think that covers the incest warning too.

One would hope that people would be able to deduce this. Though I do recall hearing, a few years ago, of an instance where somebody complained about the lack of an incest warning on a (pairing labelled) Fred/George fic (not quite sure what they expected there: maybe that the identical twins weren't really related, or that Fred and George were two totally unrelated OCs).

This one can be very entertainingly subjective. :P

Very true. I imagine that for many people Hastur/Ligur fits into this category (especially if it involves Ligur in a bright purple taffeta ballgown - he'd wear his grubby rain mack over the top of course). His disgrace, of course, insists that holy water and snakes always be warned for.

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

One would hope that people would be able to deduce this. Though I do recall hearing, a few years ago, of an instance where somebody complained about the lack of an incest warning on a (pairing labelled) Fred/George fic (not quite sure what they expected there: maybe that the identical twins weren't really related, or that Fred and George were two totally unrelated OCs).


Perhaps that reader thought there might be an instance of twin brothers having sex that somehow wasn't incest?

Very true. I imagine that for many people Hastur/Ligur fits into this category (especially if it involves Ligur in a bright purple taffeta ballgown - he'd wear his grubby rain mack over the top of course).

This is definitely disturbing content. And yet, in the context of a fluffy, sexless, character-study vignette of Ligur becoming truly self-actualized, I can see how warning for that would offend the poor duke. After all, it's only about his efforts to get others to see him for the Disney princess he has always been in his heart.

His disgrace, of course, insists that holy water and snakes always be warned for.

Well, of course, THAT'S just common courtesy! How insensitive can you be, you boor?

[quantum-witch.livejournal.com]

After all, it's only about his efforts to get others to see him for the Disney princess he has always been in his heart.

I choked on my own fucking spit when I read this. Thanks XD

[ithilwen.livejournal.com]

I'm baffled that there are people out there who honestly believe fiction of any form (even fanfiction) can ever be a 'safe space'. The author can't read every potential reader's mind! No matter how much you warn, you may leave something important out.

I try to be courteous, too, but honestly it's problematic writing warning. I know slash squicks some, but I don't want to encourage real homophobia, and some people want warnings for even minimal same-sex contact (such as kissing), so I've given up on specifically warning for slash unless I'm posting on an archive that requires it. And right now I'm writing a story that has a sex scene I honestly don't know how to rate. Character A tricks Character B into sex (by hopping onto him just while he's waking from sleep with an erection). He wouldn't have consented to this - but only because he's not in his right mind at the time. Afterwards, he's grateful she did it. Is that scene non-con or not? I truly have no idea. I can argue it either way, and I can certainly imagine it has the possibility of triggering someone, but as it's written it's not a very upsetting scene to read; in fact, it's conclusion leaves the reader happy. What sort of warning should I slap onto that?

People who are obsessive about the subject of warnings are the ones with the problem, as I see it. Ultimately a reader has to trust the author; if the reader can't do that, she's better off not reading that author's works.

[fyrdrakken]

"Dub-con" is probably the label you should use for that one, being specifically indicative of arguable territory in the area of consent.

[mofic.livejournal.com]

I don't warn other than to say that there's "explicit sex, violence, and some disturbing themes" or something like that. If someone dies in the story, I want the reader to find out when the reader finds out. And similarly for most plot points. And I'm just fine with people not reading my stories if they can't read something unless they know the specifics of the plot.

I'd also be glad to answer questions about the story from an individual who had particular triggers, rather than put a warning to all readers, but no one has ever asked.

[fyrdrakken]

I find myself now curious to read "The Downward Spiral". And also, I'm reminded of something my father once noted, about the funniest comics tending to be struggling with depression and the like in their personal lives. Which ties into my ongoing theory about balance, that people with no real angst in their real lives go wallowing in tragedy, while humor is a method of coping with pain. Which would certainly explain unexpected depths in comedy and eye-rolling bits in drama and tragedy.

Also of course there's the oft-made point that comedy is a lot harder to do properly than drama, whether as a writer or an actor. Yet for some reason the easy stuff gets more respect? Not from me, it doesn't...

[hsavinien.livejournal.com]

I have heard that too, that humor is most often produced by people dealing with bad stuff in their life, but I am blessed enough to have a stable, generally happy life and I'm not at all interested in most tragedy, so I take the sweeping nature of such a generalization as any generalization. It may be often true, but the exceptions are many and varied. On the other hand, my roleplaying characters' love lives all took a sharp downturn once I got into a good romantic relationship, so I may balance things in other ways... */babbling*

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

It's a mixed bag for me. Might be true, might not - chemical and temperamental factors play into it, and mileage really, really does vary. It's not a simple thing.

I've always suffered from depression, and I've always had to deal with a disturbing amount of random death and tragedy around me. When I was younger, I really liked tragic, angsty fiction because it seemed "realistic." Now I have very little patience for it, because my gut reaction is, yes, terrible things happen, but to me the most worthwhile stories are about how life is full of laughter anyway. I don't need fic to be all hearts and flowers and fluff all the time, but I want to see characters overcoming shit instead of just wallowing, and I want to laugh no matter what.

Opposite experience: I found my ability to write shippy fic severely impaired by a bad breakup. :(

[fyrdrakken]

As with all generalizations, it's useful only as far as it goes, but I like it. It's one of my unifying theories of human behavior (and how I answered a friend who annoyedly asked why the most fluffy silly canon created dark complex fic and meta from its fans, while dark complex canon led to fans coming in and trying to spackle over the intricacies with pink sugarcream frosting in their fic).

[hsavinien.livejournal.com]

There are some very strong cases for that in many fandoms, true...

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

"The Downward Spiral" is here. Friendslocked at switchythings because of smutty art, but I see you're a member already. (The nervous bunglers in question are Aziraphale and Crowley, which should be warning enough for someone of your discerning tastes and nerves of steel. :D)

I think the balance theory is probably right-on in some key respect, but it's not necessarily a 1-1 correspondence, if you take my meaning.

[fyrdrakken]

Ooh, many thanks for the link! I don't recall having read it before, so I'm definitely looking forward to doing so.

And, yeah, a generalization is only useful up to a point. Occasionally somewhat illuminating, but not a hard-and-fast rule.

[amberdiceless.livejournal.com]

When I see wank erupt over this and a number of other topics, it always brings to mind that brilliant Princess Bride quote: "Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is selling something."

Life is offensive, uncomfortable, and frequently distressing. Declining to give intentional offense or distress, and taking some reasonable steps to avoid doing so by accident, is something that nice people of character generally do, and that's awesome. Walking on eggshells, obsessively self-censoring, and generally bending over backward to avoid any possibility that anything one says or does might conceivably be perceived as bad by someone somewhere in some situation, is a quick ticket to neurosis, contributes to the general wussification of society and is not something that anyone has a right to demand of anyone else.

Or to put it another way: If someone just can't handle the possibility that they might come across something that distresses them unexpectedly in a work of casual fiction, how the hell can they deal with going out in the real world where they might run into a genuine asshole who thinks it's funny to intentionally push peoples' buttons, or who just plain doesn't give a shit?

[quantum-witch.livejournal.com]

Surprised I missed this posting...

My online reading has been no better or worse than my RL reading. There aren't many warnings for published works you find in stores, and I've come across some doozies that triggered me into actually throwing books in the trash (which for me is a cardinal sin). With the net, at least I can just hit a key and the story ceases to exist. I have dealt with mental anguish, but that's my problem, not the writer's. I wouldn't yell at anyone for not posting a warning, though I do consider it common courtesy to note a general rating.

Myself, I don't think I've done more than note basic rating, slash, sexual content, language, violence, adult situations. If someone can't handle whatever I write, I will discuss it in an email. Then again, much of my writing is far tamer than my artwork. And even then, it's generally the same thing - rating, sexual situation, slash, violence, adult. That's all people get. If we all have to struggle with triggers or squicks in material we purchase, then why should it be different with something we see free on the net? And this is coming from a person in therapy for PTSD.

It's been ages since we did Downward Spiral, so my memory is a little fuzzy on some of the beta work. I do think it was a good idea to continue the story beyond the original ending point, if for nothing else than to help the poor characters through their own mess XD Getting the perspective from at least one person unfamiliar with the dynamics of BDSM was esp. informative, I thought.

[quantum-witch.livejournal.com]

Oh, and I totally agree that sometimes a summary or warning can be an excellent advertisement or enticement ;)