I get my kicks below the waistline, sunshine...

[vulgarweed]

Wow. Here is a new reason for male-envy in slash fandom I've never quite seen expressed this way before:

Fandom Secrets thread about a post in which a fan envies male characters for not being expected to remove their pubic hair and the comments thereof, in which I'm happily wanking away.

I find it disturbing, though. Really? Really? I always thought of shaved/waxed-off pubes as a kink that some people are into and some people aren't, not a basic expectation. Might be practical if you're a pro swimmer or swimsuit model or bicycle racer, but...is this really as mainstream these days as this poster seems to think? Hell, when I first became sexually active, it wasn't even all that common in porn! I don't shave, and I have certainly never been kicked out of bed for it - but I did try it for kicks to surprise a partner once, and he was so squicked out by it I got NO action at all until it grew back! (His quote: "WHY?!? WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT?!?!? I LIKE WOMEN, NOT LITTLE GIRLS, EW EW EW EW!" Again, YKINMK, and it's fine if it's yours...but wow, don't assume it's everyone's!)

I wonder if it's generational.

***

On the other side of the pelvis, Oh look, another popular pro author is having a meltdown over fanfiction and showing her ass all over the Internet (Diana Gabaldon)

SIGH.

I want to thank wintercreek* for this fabulous post where she is working to compile a list of authors who are supportive of fanfic, or at least pragmatic and rational about it. When it's all done, I'll print it out and take it to the bookstore with me when I'm looking to follow up on recs and discover new authors to love.

Some of the defensive commenters on Gabaldon's blog have referred to angry fen saying they're not going to buy her books anymore as committing "blackmail." Hell no. No reader owes any author her money and attention and mental real estate. Blackmail is a crime, and there is no crime in declining to buy a book.

But my reason for not buying the books of authors who have insulting tantrums about fic writers and compare them to stalkers and thieves and homewreckers, as DG does in her rant, is kind of self-serving too. Any time I pick up a book, there is a chance that I will love it in that particular way that inspires me to work with the story. I don't know why some books I love do this and others don't. But the simple truth is, I know I'm better off staying out of the psychic playgrounds created by authors who hate "my kind" and think my way of interacting with the media I love is comparable to trespassing or sexual harassment. It's indicative of an attitude about the creative process itself that is deeply at odds with mine, and that's one of those political differences (you bet it is) that I can't quite get around. I just don't need that kind of crap in my creative life, especially when there are so many great authors I am more compatible with still out there to be discovered.


*I don't think wintercreek is on LJ anymore - if you're reading this first on LJ, just follow the other link to her DW and you'll see her post.

Comments

[bliumchik]

Actually there was a whole thing about the pubic hair thing going round the feminist blogosphere a while ago. It is definitely a generational thing - apparently lack of hair is ubiquitous in porn now, and normal-to-expected IRL.

[vulgarweed]

That is incredibly depressing. I say this both as someone who doesn't think anyone should be pressured to alter their bodies and as someone who expects body hair as a matter of course (we're ANIMALS, for fuck's sake!), and is turned on by it and likes it aesthetically.

It is definitely not normal or expected in my social circles. Not just my own sexual experiences, but LOTS of "girl talk" at the bar reveals this. A lot of our scandalized screaming is, like, "S/he shaves?!?!? EEEEEEEW!!"

When it first started showing up in copious quantities in porn in the 90s I was like, "damn, I hope this fad dies out soon." Alas.

[silverfox]

shaved/waxed-off pubes

Tried that once as a teen - purely out of curiosity since I wasn't even in love at the time. Hell did that itch when it started growing back! Never again.

[vulgarweed]

I totally get it as a fetish - I had a lover once who was into it and I let him shave me because I knew it turned him on a lot (did nothing for me, really). But it was not MY fetish, and when that relationship ended I certainly didn't ever do it regularly again.

But yeah, the grow-back is really itchy and uncomfortable. ICK. I haven't done it in 10 years and would've ever without a compelling reason.

[shadowvalkyrie]

I find it disturbing, though. Really? Really? I always thought of shaved/waxed-off pubes as a kink that some people are into and some people aren't, not a basic expectation. Might be practical if you're a pro swimmer or swimsuit model or bicycle racer, but...is this really as mainstream these days as this poster seems to think? Hell, when I first became sexually active, it wasn't even all that common in porn! I don't shave, and I have certainly never been kicked out of bed for it - but I did try it for kicks to surprise a partner once, and he was so squicked out by it I got NO action at all until it grew back! (His quote: "WHY?!? WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT?!?!? I LIKE WOMEN, NOT LITTLE GIRLS, EW EW EW EW!" Again, YKINMK, and it's fine if it's yours...but wow, don't assume it's everyone's!)

WORD on that! I tried the complete shaving thing once and found it supremely itchy and impractical, not to mention the ingrown hair roots -- nasty! I only keep my legs and armpits hair-free, but the rest of the pelt stays firmly in place, and like you I've yet to meet anyone who'd complain about that. It's weird how ubiquitous it is in porn, though, considering no one I know (regardless of age) does it. It can't be that many people's kink then, can it? And it weirds me out to no end that this person feels inadequate because of something she sees in porn; how feeble is her grip on reality, exactly? Does she feel inadequate for not being into gang-bangs and an inability to deep-throat too? Still waiting for that letter from Hogwarts as well, I suppose?

It's indicative of an attitude about the creative process itself that is deeply at odds with mine, and that's one of those political differences (you bet it is) that I can't quite get around.

Yes, that! Not to mention that it's not a nice feeling to be morally condemned by someone you like for something you don't consider a crime at all. It's like suddenly finding out one of your friends has been a fundie all along or something. ":-(

[wintercreek]

Thanks for the signal boost!

You are quite right; I am DW-only these days.

[violetisblue.livejournal.com]

"...is this really as mainstream these days as this poster seems to think?"

Amongst people younger than you and I (I'm forty), it definitely appears to be--I keep hearing that there's now an expectation that women be shaved/waxed/lasered into complete hairlessness and if she isn't then it's "gross," "disgusting," "dirty," "smelly," "gorilla-like," "Sascrotch," etc. (I hear all this from women every bit as much from men). Witness some commentary here on what happened when Crystal Renn posed nude for a French fashion magazine showing a full bush. (I also keep hearing that it's apparently impossible to have really good sex/worthwhile orgasms without having a bare twat since that "increases sensation," which, that's nice and all but I'm doing just fine in that department without having a folliculitis forest between my legs. Also he apparently "can't find anything down there" unless it's totally bare, which if that's the case dear fucking God go find yourself a partner with an actual clue.) Anyway, as a Mediterranean she-bear it all just makes me happy I have a partner who doesn't shave anything at all and doesn't expect me to look like a chemo patient from the ultra-groomed eyebrows down.

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

I'm 40 too, and while the number of partners (of both genders) I've had over the years is, erm, not low....I have generally tended to stick to my general age group, so I have not encountered hairless crotches very often. On the rare occasions I have, I have to say, as politely as I can....it is not a turn-on. Oh, SO not.

Pubic hair exists for a reason. It reduces the bad kind of friction, yes, but more importantly, it does trap smells. Those amazing erotic pheromonal musky smells, which are a very important part of the sexual experience to me. Also, personally speaking, I love the texture and I love to play with it, and I don't mind sometimes getting it stuck in my teeth or throat...at all.

Also, female-anatomically speaking? There's not much if any hair inside the lips of the vulva. Which is where the clit usually is. Claiming it's hard to find unless the whole cooch is shaved is like saying you can never possibly recognize a person's face if s/he has a shag haircut or a moustache.

[ellimayhem.livejournal.com]

Fuck razor burn. I prefer a neat short trim to either 70's bush or pedosmooth, personally, but that's because of comfort not looks. The happy medium between razor burn and Ouch! You're on my hair!

One of the ex-bf's liked to shave himself from the neck down. Given he was maybe 120 soaking wet, I had the same reaction you got - too much like a child for me to be aroused.

I have happy news pending, I'll send you a facebook msg with the skinny.

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

I trim, cause my hair there is weirdly straight and will grow inconveniently long if I don't. But there is a HUGE difference between trimming the shrubbery and paving it over for a parking lot! :D

I like pubes. If I'm going down, I like to feel it tickling my nose.


YAAYY, happy news!

[chase820.livejournal.com]

I think Gabaldon wrote exactly one good book in her life--the original Outlander--but in case she writes any more, she can forget my $9.95. Authors who throw tantrums over fanfic are childish, selfish, and totally delusional. Not people I feel like supporting. Gabaldon can join Anne Rice and Laurell K. Hamilton on my "do not buy" list.

Jim Butcher, on the other hand, is the man. How awesome is he to allow fans to even discuss their fanfiction at his website? I'm not much on the Harry Dresden books, but he is v. cool.

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

Jim Butcher, I think, actually signed himself on with a Creative Commons license, where derivative works are explicitly given his permission and protection as "fair use" as long as they credit him for the original concept.

Very, very cool.

[silenceleigh.livejournal.com]

*blink*

Except for the exactly one time when it was historically accurate for my protagonist to have trimmed pubic hair (ancient Rome), I don't think I've ever had a character, male or female, who did much of anything to their pubic hair. (Seriously, in the days before scissors and safety razors, even trimming was hazardous to your health, and forget shaving!)

And in my most sex-sodden series (which would be the drow series), it's mentioned more than a few times.

I honestly think that widespread availability of porn has made hairlessness something of a fad among the younger generation. I shaved when I was younger for a few years, then I stopped. I consider it pretty harmless...until I start hearing that people *expect* women to shave/wax/whatever. Then again, I also get mad when people take shaved legs for granted.

Er...I had a point. Somewhere. I think it might have gotten lost.

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

I'm old enough to remember when pubic hairlessness was really rare even in porn! And I'm only 40, so this is obviously not some kind of It Has Always Been So tradition, though I guess it might seem that way if you're 16.

In my porn, I often mention pubic hair as a specific detail that's hot. Because I think it is. And that applies whether it's slash, het, or femslash. I just like it. I don't want it to go away.

[alchemine.livejournal.com]

I shaved completely once and will never do that again - the misery when it started to grow back was indescribable. I do trim about once a month (or when I remember to) but that's as far as I go. If I should ever happen to have sex again, the other person involved will just have to deal with it, or else not get any.

And I love the fact that Diana Gabaldon thinks fanfiction has too much sex in it when her own books are jam-packed with pr0n. I've only read one of them, but there were sex scenes practically falling out of every page.

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

I just found it so annoying and itchy. Ugh.

(TMI: I did have one partner, once, for whom shaving pubes was definitely a strong kink. I was willing to do that for him because it turned him on so much. You know what that meant, though? I never shaved myself during that whole relationship - it was his turn-on that HE would do it for me. Wow, it was a lot of work!)

From what I've seen of the sex scenes of hers that have been quoted on line, they seem to be....right in line with the general caliber of fanfic writers. Not the very worst, but certainly not the best either. If I'd had any emotional investment in her characters, I'd have back-buttoned pretty quickly.

[sarken.livejournal.com]

I've found that the styles of underwear and bathing suits aimed at people my age make some shaving or waxing a must, really, unless you want hair sticking out all over the place -- and that's the modest styles that I lean toward. Hell, even shorts are so ridiculously short that, unless you plan on sitting like a lady, you need to do some work.

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

I do a little trimming/bikini-line on the inner thighs in the summer, sure. But there's a big difference between pruning the shrubbery and paving it over for a parking lot!

(Using this icon because, hello, despite the name and the trend, there are even still lots of Brazilian women who like themselves more or less natural.)

[hopita.livejournal.com]

I'm happy to see that you're not the only member of my friends list who is over there telling people that hair is the natural state of things, not OMG gross.

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

Very very good to know. Let's all stand up for:

i like kissing this and that of you,
i like, slowly stroking the, shocking fuzz
of your electric fur... - e.e. cummings.

Always loved that poem, especially for those lines. :)

[amberdiceless.livejournal.com]

Et tu, Diana? Some people just don't get it, do they? And I liked Outlander and a couple of its sequels rather a lot. :p

I'm sorry to say that her little rant makes me itch to go write a Claire/Jamie fic where I never had any particular desire to do so before. >[

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

I've never read her books. I have a lot of friends who like them, I was going to get around to them eventually...until now, no. :(

[tears-of-nienna.livejournal.com]

Huh. I'm sad that Diana Gabaldon is such a jerk about fanfic. Outlander was pretty good--although I could never get into the later books--but I actually really adore her Lord John series. Gay sex in the 18th century! Molly houses! Good times.

I was going to cross him over with a pair of AU British cops one day, too. Too bad, John. Too bad.

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

I've never read any DG, I must admit. Becuase I know so many people who like her stuff, she was always on my to-do list...until now. No, nah.


(Did Lord John ever get to have sex in her books? From the synopses I've read, it always sounds like he did a lot of pining but had very little fulfillment.)

[furius.livejournal.com]

The funny thing is that although I've never discussed the hair issue with anyone in my age group or had it come up before, somehow the expectations has seeped into my subconscious (media? hearsay?) so the first time my mother brought it up apparently after reading about it somewhere, surprised and aghast, I actually told her "it's expected, like shaving legs." That it wasn't expected just a decade or two ago as your post implies actually never occurred to me....

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

Expected....by whom? I mean, legs and armpits have been an issue since American soldiers came back from WWI and passed on the fact that shaving legs was, at the time, the fashion among European prostitutes. That's how it got started in the US. Yes, really.

So, in the summer, your legs and armpits are on display to strangers, so I understand conforming but....your crotch? I mean, unless you're actually a sex worker, surely that's only an issue between you and your Very Special Friends, right?

In my experience, it is not expected. I surely don't expect it.

[anna-wing.livejournal.com]

There are authors who don't like fanfic of their works and say so, briefly and civilly. One should then, in equal civility, comply with their wishes at least in respect of Internet publication. Just as one of those human-emotion things, one is less likely to do the same in the face of a demand couched in emotional, condescending and insulting terms. As with most human interactions, being polite would have gained Gabaldon rather more in both actual compliance with her wishes and effect upon her reputation among her fans.

As a separate issue, to rant at length, usually in an unpleasant and frequently rather irrational way (cf Robin Hobbs) generally calls into question their self-control and intellectual coherence, which then leads to questions (these being qualities generally necessary to be a decent writer of anything) about the quality of their work. I have been fortunate that most of the ranters are not writers whom I have ever felt the impulse to read again, having sampled their work. I think this may actually the same thing as your point about political differences. Most of the extreme (and more uncivilised) political positions are intellectually incoherent, one way or the other, and if a writer is mentally incapable of recognising this it does tend to show in their writing.

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

I definitely respect the wishes of writers who don't want fanfic of their works and say so--briefly and civilly.

But it seems that the fanfiction-disallowing writers who've done so (George R R Martin comes to mind) are in an extreme minority compared to the fanfic-hating writers who have flailing drama-queen fits on the matter.

Most of the flailing, shrieking writers tend to want to exert COMPLETE DOMINION over their characters. And in doing so, they remind me most of all of the kind of possessive, overprotective parents who don't realize that (a) children GROW UP and that's pretty much the point of them, and (b) your children are NOT extensions of you, but different people. And once you've released your "children" out into the world, they'll be interacting with others. If lots of other people like them, that is SUCCESS, not failure.

[angharadd.livejournal.com]

I wonder if it's generational.

The mileage might also vary depending on the county. I'm Ukrainian; while I've also never been kicked out of anybody's bed because of the bush, most people shave, and this had been a predominant trend for quite a time: for example, one of my friends had been advised to shave it all off by her mother (born in early 1950s), and my mom (b. 1960) had been pressuring me into shaving as well. Never conducted any conclusive polls, though *grins*

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

I...actually in the US have no idea how many women shave because it's not something we usually talk about much. But I've had female partners and never encountered it all that often.

(I have glimpsed my - BRAZILIAN - mom in the shower in hotel rooms and I know she doesn't. So much for that stereotype. She was born late 40s; I was born late 60s, she certainly never in all her extensive 'girl talks' told me to shave THERE.)

[ellid.livejournal.com]

I had my pubic hair shaved before an operation when I was twelve. When it grew back, not only did it itch horribly, I ended up with sebaceous cysts and a real, genuine, BOIL that hurt like nothing before or since when I finally got up my courage and drained it. Never again, EVER.

[celandineb.livejournal.com]

Chiming in a bit late here... the one time I shaved the bikini line, I got ouch-making ingrown hairs like whoa, and right there where the undies elastic hits - um, no. Never again. We shaved my girlfriend once in college, and she didn't seem to have the same problem, but she also wasn't so keen on it that she kept it up. I was neutral on the effect.

I do shave my pits, in part b/c my antiperspirant seems more effective that way, and I have sweat issues. Legs - these days I wax, but not very regularly. I think I have a good 1/2" of growth right now, and I only wax below the knees anyhow. So on the whole - yeah, I do some depilation, but more for personal reasons than for societal expectations.

Re: Gabaldon, have never read her books, and although I might have had them on the mental "someday" list, they are now off. *shrugs* I have way way too much on the to-read list, why should I spend my time reading someone who is so vociferously disrespectful of me and mine?

[apricot-tree.livejournal.com]

I'm in your age bracket, but yeah, I do not shave. Granted, I'm also in a long term relationship and not out in the world. But I don't think I would be interested in a shaved crotch. I wouldn't kick someone out of bed over it, but I don't find it attractive. I'm really behind the times anyway. I like hairy chested men. :)

Expected by whom? It must be more mainstream than it was as I see tv ads for shavers. But is it expected by real people or the media? The media tells me it expects all kinds of things about me as a woman that make me snicker.

[steadfast.livejournal.com]

It might be an age thing. I'm only 23 and I do know that it is, while not EXPECTED, definitely ENCOURAGED. It's so there that it's gotten to the point where I'm not entirely sure where it's coming from... I have definitely seen it referenced in things like Cosmo as being a way to "please your man" etc. Also, I can distinctly recall a book called "Deal Breaker" that came up with scenarios about what a partner could do and would you break up with them over it, and there were numerous examples about men making snide remarks about pubic hair. *sighs*

Like I said, it's sort of expected so it's really hard for me to pinpoint exactly where the message is coming from. The easy answer is that boys my age are watching porn where women shave and thus are thinking that's sexy. In fact, the idea of future partner being hairy is also distinctly unappealing to me, which really makes me think it's something that's been beaten into my age bracket. Which, now that I'm being all meta about it, really ticks me off xD

(I personally shave but not always down there as it gets itchy. But I'm weird and hate my body hair unless it's on my head, as I get this feeling like I haven't bathed if I'm hairy, so I'd do it anyway. But I don't judge anyone else for not doing it.)

[quantum-witch.livejournal.com]

This is a fun discussion. And I seem to be the only exception to the rule. I have shaved a landing strip for fifteen years. I don't do it for looks or effect, I do it for comfort.

It started as an experiment to see if I could finally be rid of the genuine plagues hair had caused me for half my life - chronically infected follicles, hair that got painfully twisted in clothing, thick clotting during periods (you want disgusting, I can dish it out). The experiment worked beautifully. I haven't had any troubles, and though it was itchy for the few couple of months, now I wouldn't have it any other way. It is absolutely worth it for me. I don't feel it's cut down at all on the sensation or scent or anything else deemed important. It's not something I'd write deliberately in a story, because it's not important on a social level and I do see the appeal - I'd be annoyed if my husband shaved, because I do like it on him. And he doesn't care what I do as long it makes me comfortable, and it does. If I stopped (which I did once, also as an experiment) it would be all the same to him. I don't, by any means, "look like a little girl" down there, or anywhere else, so I don't see what the problem is.



Now for the rest of your post. Sheesh, the woman seems to believe she has control over the thoughts of others. I mean, yeah, I get annoyed if people take my artwork and run off with it, but if they ask or at least give me proper credit, I honestly don't care and will even promote them. If I'm ever published in any fashion that makes money, I'm going to feel the same way.

[persephoneflame.livejournal.com]

I've shaved since I was about 16, I think. The landing strip or a small triangle, as well. For me it is a comfort thing, and I think all of my partners (male and female) have at least trimmed. I prefer some hair to no hair (though I've had partners who were bare, too), but I don't care enough either way to dictate to a partner what he or she should do with her pubic hair.

I went all bare once when I was 17, to try it out, and HATED it. I did feel like I looked like a little girl. I did it again in my mid-twenties and realized that NO ONE was going to mistake me for pre-pubescent, but I still preferred some hair.

There's a definite societal expectation at least that I perceive (I'm 27 and a sex radical), but no one has kicked me out of bed or complained because I have hair (or don't).

[888mph.livejournal.com]

Fandom Secrets thread about a post in which a fan envies male characters for not being expected to remove their pubic hair.

Well, they obviously haven't been seeing much gay porn...

[vulgarweed.livejournal.com]

Supposedly shaving makes it look bigger...

[ithilwen.livejournal.com]

But the simple truth is, I know I'm better off staying out of the psychic playgrounds created by authors who hate "my kind" and think my way of interacting with the media I love is comparable to trespassing or sexual harassment. It's indicative of an attitude about the creative process itself that is deeply at odds with mine, and that's one of those political differences (you bet it is) that I can't quite get around.

Word. I liken it to the reaction I have to Mel Gibson now, versus the reaction I had to him in his early days as a movie star (before he shot off his mouth). I liked him once; now, though, when I see him I'm reminded of the ugly things he's said in public, and it's a reaction I simply can't get past, and as a result I now find his movies unwatchable. Feelings simply can't be easily overriden voluntarily.

[fyrdrakken]

Oddly enough, I've been seeing a bit on this topic lately after it not even having been a blip on my radar for years and years: First I had a friend in her mid-to-early-30s whose currently divorcing and having fun with younger men mentioning how one guy she was planning on hooking up with expressed a preference for shaved when she asked him about it, and she was requesting advice on how to go about doing so. (Very interestingly, a lot of women were telling her to go for what one described as a "soul patch," shaving the labia and leaving the front part alone because that is the part that's really itchy and unpleasant when growing back -- such has definitely been my own experience.) And then another friend in her early 20s (and in Europe!) saying how appalled she was to hear from other girls her age about how they feel it's expected of them to shave.

[warregoriver.livejournal.com]

Also, for what it is it worth, it has long been de rigeur in some cultural groups (ask the RN's and MD's you know).

Still not my scene, but there it is. Apart from everything else, the punters are buying into a helluva lot of mowing and edging.