vulgarweed | Bottom Today, Top Tomorrow, Flip a Coin!

cross-posted to Twitter and Tumblr.

Lately I’ve had two requests to include stories of mine in Bottom!Character collections on AO3 - two different pairings, two different fandoms! One fic is Johnlock and the other Aziraphale/Crowley. I’m sitting on them and mulling.

Because sure, the character they like bottoming does in both those stories (Sherlock and Aziraphale) and I don’t mind those readers with a strong preference enjoying those stories, at all!

But for both those pairings I am VERY STAUNCHLY a switch/vers writer (in fact, in the case of A/C I think it’s symbolically and theologically important that they switch). And there are a lot of jackasses out there who can’t cope with this.

The kind of people who harass writers for writing it “wrong” (and have driven several wonderful writers out of fandoms over it). So I’m hesitant to expose my fics to their attention (because if they check out my other work they will certainly find things they don’t like, fuck yeah) or to give even the SLIGHTEST hint that I might ever endorse or respect that mentality. I want my position on positions to be clear - it’s all fine, except flaming people for writing it the other way; that is NOT fine, ever. And I like to write it all the ways.

I’ve got some excellent feedback on the Twitter and Tumblr threads, and I’m strongly leaning towards saying no. Yet I don’t mind people who have a preference reading the fics of mine that match that and passing on the others - not every story is for everyone, that’s no problem. Of course it’s flattering to be asked. But I don’t want my vanity to lead anyone to getting the wrong impression.

What do y’all think?

Anyway, here are two of my most explicitly switch fics:

Race to the Bottom (Aziraphale/Crowley). This one is all about why it’s actually ineffably important that they get to take turns.

Splat! (Sherlock/John, Appalachian AU) This is the one where they compete for topping “privilege” by hunting each other with paintball guns. There’s a scene where Sherlock wins and a scene where John does.

Current Mood: pensive
Current Music: Anger Breeds Contempt - Immortal Bird

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

lazaefair

I headcanon literally everyone as bisexual and vers (probs because I am bisexual and vers) so I never really understood why the entire seme/uke debate even existed. Shouldn’t a good writer be able to sell you on pretty much any premise or dynamic, no matter how strange or outlandish? It’s fiction, it’s all made up, nothing about the realm of imagination is carved in stone.

From:

vulgarweed

Hahaha, I generally do the same thing for the same reason! And I'm in complete agreement that it's down to the writer's skill and absolutely nothing should be off the table. Why limit yourself unnecessarily? And....why assume your characters want to limit themselves unnecessarily, sexually speaking?

I imagine because some people think top and bottom are immutable personality traits, and vers people don't real, or if they do, they're so rare they don't matter. Which is a notion I find really offensively stereotypical, tbh.

From:

lazaefair

God, yeah, on top of being pretty nonsensical. I mean like...there's 7.5 billion people, and another billion people who came before us. That is a mind-boggling number of genetic combinations multiplied by an even more mind-boggling number of different life experiences. It's actually more logical that there'd be a wildly varied and fluid array of sexual preferences.

From:

breathedout

That paintball fic is an all-time fave. *Queues it for a re-read*

The whole topping/bottoming discourse gives me hives; I wouldn’t blame you at all for saying no.

From:

vulgarweed

awwww thank you!!! I had a LOT of fun writing that one.

It gives me hives too, and for my sanity I should stay out - but it's kind of morbidly fascinating to me. It's trainwreck syndrome. And I feel like there aren't enough people out there waving the vers flag. People think there are only two houses for that stereotypical little Sorting Jimmyhat, not three, and they're being so Wrong on the Internet about that.

From:

ancientreader

Funny this should come up for you (har har har) right now: a couple of weeks ago I got a request to put one of my fics in an AO3 collection called "bottomlock" and I flinched so hard I nearly went through the wall. I rejected the request and only much later did it occur to me that since the fic in question was the one in which John and Sherlock act out a fantasy in which Sherlock is an underaged sex slave, the requester was probably not one of those horrible people. Oops.

Anyhow, I have no advice for you, but I feel you, oh boy do I feel you.

From:

vulgarweed

OH, I bet it was the same one! I haven't accepted or rejected yet, it's still sitting there. Good to know that they probably aren't that bad on the purity wank front. The one they wanted from me was the one where Sherlock fantasizes about getting gangbanged by a whole army unit, and then John looks up a buddy to set it up for him.

From:

teaforlupin

...which fic might that be? Asking for a friend >.>

From:

ancientreader

You're responding to me? (I can't quite tell whether me or VW.) Anyhow, if me, it's "Whoredom in Egypt," https://archiveofourown.org/works/5648989, which is also Bible porn because go big or go home, right?

From:

teaforlupin

I was responding to you, sorry I wasn't clear! And, well, go big or go home, indeed. That fic is amazing in all the best ways *__*

From:

ancientreader

Ah, glad you enjoyed! And it wasn't you being unclear, it was the DW layout.

From:

luthe

I am lacking in link, but the Vulgarweed fic you are looking for is "Belt-Fed Cock." *would not have any such fic bookmarked, oh lawks no*

From:

teaforlupin

WELL THEN

From:

donut_donut

Honestly I say go for it. It sounds like they're more interested in it as a kink than as some political or moral statement. I'm all about switchlock, but sometimes a girl just wants to read about Sherlock getting railed, no big.

From:

vulgarweed

I'm starting to think the best thing to do is to investigate more closely and maybe find some contact info and give them the short, diplomatic version of this post.

From:

donut_donut

Can't hurt.

My instinct is, the *kind* of people who are deeply invested in the bottomlock wars are *also* the kind of people who could never stand to see Sherlock fucked by anyone but John. So if they're even requesting your gangbang fic, they are probably not the strident "moral" crusaders you have in mind.

but yeah, always good to clarify these things instead of relying on gut feelings!

From:

melannen

Yeah: On the one hand, I agree with you 100% on the principle.

On the other hand, sometimes I really do just want a scene with a particular dynamic on a particular day, and AO3 isn't all that great at letting me filter for it, and I've been trying to join the effort of telling people who complain that AO3 isn't enforcing their particular version of 'correct fandom' that they can just make a collection for that and stick to the collection, instead of yelling at everyone about how AO3 is full of badwrong fanfic. So I would probably say yes if something like this came up for my fic, just in the hope of encouraging that behavior. (Collection capabilities on AO3 are, imho, heavily underused, but part of that is that there isn't really a built fannish etiquette about what being in a collection *means*, and part of that is tech issues around what being in a collection means.)

On the gripping hand, if they just want a directory of fic they like, there's nothing stopping them from bookmarking your stories to the collections instead, which is what I did the one time I tried to set up a collection of 'all stories with this specific element' - bookmark *everything*, and then make it clear in the profile that authors were invited to add the stories as well/instead. But, like I said, no real best practices around this that I know of yet.)

On the... fourth hand, if someone had already said 'no' to me adding their story, I'd hesitate to bookmark the fic instead, because that would seem rude, so maybe saying 'no' would mean they couldn't have your story on the list? I'm trying to remember if there'd be an easy way to say 'don't add the fic, but feel free to add a bookmark to it'.

IDK. I guess poke around the collections as they currently exist a little, and see if you can figure out what they're really for?

From:

vulgarweed

I get what you're saying about curation being an important ability to have, and in theory I have nothing against somebody making a collection of "hey, here's some hot bottomlock!" It's just so hard to shake off the history of so much vicious wankery. It doesn't feel like a safe thing to consent to unless I know the person making it isn't one of those wankers - and I don't know that. Even if I did only write those characters bottoming exclusively, I'd object to that in principle.

But because I do write them switching and I have a ton of toplock and top!Crowley fics, someone reading that collection who's inclined to that flavor of fuckheadedness might decide to check out my other work and then get snitty that I'm not "pure." Which, OK, I'm a grown-ass writer and I'm not afraid of them. But why expose myself to it when I don't have to?

I haven't made up my mind yet. I think I'm going to look for some contact info and send them a short and diplomatic version of this post to get a sense of them.

From:

melannen

I definitely get where you're coming from, yeah. I suspect if the person making it was one of THOSE people, they wouldn't be sending requests to non-pure writers, but that doesn't say anything about other people who will be looking at the collection. And there's so much history. (I mean, I basically don't read Sherlock fic AT ALL anymore because of all the history of vicious wankery.)

I have this vague memory that a year or so ago there was actually a thing going around where somebody was requesting a whole bunch of stories go into a themed collection, and the theme (like this) had a long history of controversy, and somebody finally contacted the collection-maker and it turned out they didn't do any fandom other than reading on AO3 and had no idea there even was a controversy or why anyone would think it was controversial in the first place. So I think it definitely wouldn't hurt to contact them.

From:

tei

I suppose I agree with

melannen that I could see myself reading from a collection of this nature, if there was something I really wanted that the collected seemed set up to help me find. Which is not to guarantee that all collection-readers will be coming from a place of sanity. But overall, I'm pro-allowing people to find the stuff they like while avoiding the stuff they don't (so that they can then never have the urge to be nasty about the latter, if that is an urge they are inclined to have.)

Also, I really enjoyed the concept of "theologically important" in this post. I totally get what you mean, and agree with it! But. heh. theologically important reversal of sexual positions. heh.

From:

lazaefair

Given how many times Christians ask Jesus to come inside them...

From:

tei

But do they ask to come in Jesus, too?

From:

recently_folded

It's always good to know we can rely upon you, tei, for those hard-hitting litero-theological questions.

From:

donut_donut

Zing!

From:

lazaefair

....nnnnno, but they do spend an awful lot of time on their knees for him.

Evangelical worship services are just a mass exercise in humiliation kink.

From:

vulgarweed

Some denominations are really big on cannibalism and bloodplay kink too.

From:

solrosan

I'm always wary of adding my fics to collections I didn't have in mind when I actually wrote the fic (like challenge collections, for example) and most of the time I end up asking for the fic to be bookmarked in the collection instead.

I don't quite know why it makes me wary -- the collections often aren't as 'politically loaded' as the ones you've been asked to put your works into -- but I am. As if it's a loss of control thing.

That said, I think collections are great! It's a good way to help put your works out there for people to find. AO3 is hard to navigate and old fics in big fandoms drown under the avalanche of new fic. If people have a strong preference for the theme of the collection, they will probably stay there and not look through the writers other works.

From:

vulgarweed

Those are all very good points! I've granted permission for collections in the past, generally ones for rare pairs or certain themes and the like, that felt a lot less fraught to me.

It's true about the tendency of older fics to get lost in big fandoms, I hadn't thought about it from that point of view exactly. That fic in particular must be on some big rec list somewhere because I still get a kudos or two a week on it and it's years old. I suppose collections aren't much different from rec lists in terms of the effects they have.

From:

ilthit

I understand how you feel. On one hand, you know people who like said character bottoming will get their jollies off the stories regardless of your personal headcanon. On the other, you know you're not writing a bottom-identified character and the naming of those collections implies that that's what you did. It's right and wrong at the same time depending on how you approach the whole thing.

I think in the end you will have to decide based on how much you want people to discover your stories. If it doesn't matter that much, say no and save yourself a headache. If you would like more feedback/community participation/kudos/people enjoying your fiction, you'll have to come to terms with the fact that a percentage of people who see your stories under those headings will think you write these characters as exclusively bottoms.

And by the way I feel much the same way, I like for my characters, or characters I write if they're not mine, to be "switches" and I find the whole thing with top or bottom as an identity... something I'm not entirely comfortable with writing, for reasons mainly specific to the sphere of slash fiction. I realize real life people whose sexualities are none of my business may well engage with their sexuality and identity that way and Gaia knows that's fine!! It's more to do with how our specific literary subculture of perverts has handled top or bottom identity assigned to canon characters, historically. Etc.

From:

vulgarweed

I'm totally fine with people getting their jollies regardless of headcanon, true, and of course reasonable readers will like some of my fics and not others - it's just that, like you said, I don't at all want to be identified as a writer of bottom!so-and-so because it's not accurate and that's not at all how I conceptualize it.

There are real people who are exclusive tops or exclusive bottoms, but my characters generally are not.

I realize real life people whose sexualities are none of my business may well engage with their sexuality and identity that way and Gaia knows that's fine!! It's more to do with how our specific literary subculture of perverts has handled top or bottom identity assigned to canon characters, historically. Etc.

This this this exactly this! The more emphasis slash fandom puts on position-as-personality, the more turned off to the idea I become. And I was pretty turned off by it to begin with.

From:

ilthit

...And of course now my dumb muse is whispering to me, "write an exclusively bottom character who doesn't fit the slash fandom stereotype either in the bedroom or out and has an entirely different relationship dynamic with his switch boyfriend" but, muse, maybe not.

From:

stonepicnicking_okapi

I dunno. I suppose it depended on the asker. If you know they're a shit-stirrer or friends with the same, then definitely no.

But if it's just someone with a kink who wants a collection of that kink... *shrugs* I have said yes to all the collection requests I've gotten and I haven't even looked closely at what they're about.

From:

vulgarweed

I think the best thing to do is...a little bit of detective work, see who these people are and what they're about!

From:

trobadora

in fact, in the case of A/C I think it’s symbolically and theologically important that they switch

Hee! Completely agreed. :D

(I feel similarly about Holmes/Moriarty, actually - switching is thematically relevant!)

I do have pairings where I have a preference, and it's good to be able to find that? Especially when that preference is not the mainstream one. But it really squicks me when people conflate positions with characterisation. And then there's the, uh, wanky history ... Not sure what I'd do about the collection in your place, honestly. I hope you figure it out!

From:

vulgarweed

Oh yes, I can totally see Holmes/Moriarty working out that way too! Works well for pairings of enemies, rivals, or frenemies when the point is how evenly matched and not-so-different they are!

I guess the problem is unless you know someone at least a little bit, it's hard to tell whether they're just looking to collect stories that meet their preference and they don't judge anyone, or whether they're one of the my-way-or-the-highway wankers. And I get less and less willing to give the benefit of the doubt.